My Debate with a Gnostic

Comments on this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/          watch?v=9LV3G7Pjel0

Incredible how much wisdom in so little time this can contain! It made me pour our tears, both for the abundant life we are surrounded by, and for the amount of knowledge we need to have in order to succeed as human race!
Sometimes it makes me wonder if we are a virus as the Matrix movie says!
ernanimartins

We are not a virus, we however have been infected with a virus & embrace it and d everything in our power to grow it, nurture it, and have even recently began worshiping it publicly as a God. That virus is ego and ego has 7 main symptoms-lust, pride, gluttony, wrath, sloth, envy, & greed.
I will tell you what we are-we are the zombies roaming the planet feeding off one another as cannibals as depicted in the movies Resident Evil, 28 Days Later, Doom and so many others.
Zombies not viruses
detersbb

@detersbb “recently began worshipping” the ego as God? Really? Both the Abrahamic religions and the Dharmic religions say that the soul is divine and these are hardly what I would call new theologies. And why 7 sins and not 5 or 9? Catholic propaganda. Please update your brain to the 21st century. All life is related because DNA is a temporary part of a 3 billion year old chemical reaction that is unique to this planet and that’s why we treasure it, not because of imagined metaphysics.
Enleuk

@Enleuk Truth is truth regardless is you accept it, or call it propaganda.
Please update your brain to timeless wisdom.

Imagined metaphysics of the DNA?  Don’t worry, if somehow the human species manages to not kill itself, in several centuries-your precious physical sciences will come to accept these “imagined metaphysics.”
Please run along and troll elsewhere where people are as closed minded and in denial as yourself, where you message will be warmly received and accepted as true.
detersbb

@detersbb Catholicism is timeless wisdom? Nagarjuna is timeless wisdom. Understanding of photoisomerization of the retina is timeless wisdom. Absu is timeless wisdom. Etymology is timely wisdom. Catholicism is patriarchal clinging to power and duping of the masses for 1700 years. Maybe, if you’re still young, you will one day learn history, chemistry, neurology and such and understand that metaphysical belief is caused by the perceived discrepancy between experience and experiencer.
Enleuk

@Enleuk I never said any full religion was timeless, the principles it embodies are. Murder, theft, sexual crimes, lying, attachment to materiality are the principles dressed up as many different religions:
10 Commandments
42 Utterances (Egyptian)
Paramitas (Buddhist)
Law of Manu
Please explain the discrepancy between experience and experiencer in light of the Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.
I am sorry your precious yet silly physical sciences falsely believe separation. Metaphysics=Ones Science
detersbb

@detersbb You said that Catholicism was not propaganda but truth and that this was timeless. Material monists don’t believe in separation/duality. Metaphysics=magic, it has nothing to do with the scientific methods of investigation. I can’t explain the discrepancy in 500 characters. Also, I don’t see how you can say Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity are the same and timeless when the first 3 commandments say that you shall not believe in any other religions but Christianity.
Enleuk

@Enleuk Can’t explain the Heisenberg Principle, or won’t?
Never said catholicism was the truth, but the principles common in it with other religions as cited were the truth, so go ahead and say that I said Catholicism was the truth if it makes you feel good, but please feel free to view my channel and see that I have Gnostic material on it posted months ago, well before this thread, and Gnosticism was punishable by death under the inquisition (templars).
detersbb

@Enleuk I also never said the RELIGIONS are the same, but the principles that stand behind the “rules” are. Universal rules of ethics/morality that even extend into the secular world are prohibition on murder, theft, sex crimes, lies, and attachment to materiality are common in all religions.
Metaphysics is the science that spans the gaps between the physical and spiritual realms as white light corresponds to infrared and ultraviolet light spectrums. So go ahead and call that too junk.
detersbb

@detersbb Metaphysical is the same as spiritual. The ten commandments are hardly a good basis for morality. Why is the Sabbath holy? And what about Thou shalt not rape? Thou shalt not destroy nature? Thou shalt not kill sentient animals? Take care of the sick, the poor, the needing, the old, the dying, the young. Do not lie, unless it’s for a good cause. Don’t steal, unless you give it to someone who needs it more. Don’t torture. The 10 commandments are a useless basis for moral.
Enleuk

@detersbb I thought you asked me to explain the discrepancy, not the Heisenberg’s principle, but the principle is easier to explain so that fits in a comment. The principle says that since you can never in practice measure anything with the precision of an infinitesimal amount of time, any wave frequency can never be measured with 100% accuracy. The implication of the principle is that since the universe is a wave, the universe can never be 100% accurately measured.
Enleuk

@Enleuk, wrote “Maybe, if you’re still young, you will one day learn history, chemistry, neurology and such and understand that metaphysical belief is caused by the perceived discrepancy between experience and experiencer.”
You refuse to explain the discrepancy between experience and expierencer in light of the Heisenberg Principle because to do so would render all your precious physical sciences meritless/irrelevant, and force scientists to turn to metaphysics for answers.
detersbb

@Enleuk Metaphysics is the science that bridges the gap between the physical and the spiritual whether you accept that are not, call it spiritual, call it mysticism, the truth is the truth and your acceptance of it matter not that it is the truth, period.
If you do not understand the moral/ethical basis of the 10 commandments then I am sorry. It is clear that this is the case in that you said many things not in them and even twisted it into it is fine to lie if it is for a good cause, steal too.
detersbb

@Enleuk It is sad that you refuse to have an honest debate.
Have a nice life, but is a waste of breath to say to someone who denies the spirit and believes we are just a product of time, chance, coincidence-that we live a short life and die to be never more and that is all.
That really is a sad way to be, perhaps you will choose to get more meaning and seek the truth, but from what you have posted I hold out no hope.
Farewell.
detersbb

Metaphysics is not a science. Metaphysics suggests there is a transcendent, spiritual or dual universe, as opposed to a material monist universe and therefore not a bridge between the material monist and the other alternatives. Transcendence is a bridge between material and spiritual. Btw, metaphysics originally meant “the books you should read after the physics book”, referring to Aristotle’s works.

And my point about the 10 commandments is that they are hardly the 10 ultimate laws. They are a few good ideas and a few not so good ideas. They don’t correspond exactly to any other religion or atheistic moral system. They include nonsense laws like “Don’t have other Gods than Jehovah” and statements like “Don’t kill”, without any consideration of altruistic problems with that statement. They also don’t include a multitude of important laws like “Don’t rape” or “Don’t torture” or “Don’t live parasitically, like Mr Smith says, on the Earth’s beings, live in symbiosis with all life” and numerous others.

You blocked me, so it’s not me who is refusing an honest debate. And I don’t refuse to explain either, let me explain here.

The problem of duality starts already with the statement “I think”, even before getting to “therefore I am”. Language has been divided into nouns and verbs, while everything in the universe is a verb. Even the most static Ding is a motion, including the atom, the table, the Earth. It’s quarks and electrons moving around appearing to our indiscriminate eyes as forming large stable objects. The idea of being, which is both a noun and a verb, is the same idea as I and the same idea as thinking, because I am my consciousness, I = thinking. Thinking in the Cartesian broad sense of the term, which includes all experiences and feelings and ideas and so on. I am a verb, not a noun.

Now, the uncertainty principle must not be confused with the subjectivity. 1) Subjectivity means: I can never know for certain if my idea of the universe is in any way closely related to the objective universe. 2) Uncertainty means: Even if I believe in my perception of the universe, I can never shape my personal model of the universe into more accuracy than 99,99999999999999999999999999999…9%.

So, while the scientific method is the best way to get as close to 100% accuracy as possible, that has nothing to do with the difference between the subjective view and the objective reality as the scientific methods are based on the assumption that the subjective model, regardless of the objective truth, is true. So, when determining the value of science, you need to separate the criticism of the method and it’s accuracy and so on, from the philosophical decision to assume or refute subjectivity as truth.

For me, subjectivity is the only truth, no matter how wrong it is, because it’s only truth we can ever experience, because we are subjective. I can per definition never be objective, so there’s no point in trying, the best and only thing we can do is strive for internal consistency within the subjective model. Our best, and only, bet is that our model of the world does not contradict itself, because being subjective we can never check it against the objective key to determine it’s correctness.

In the materialist/spiritual debate, this amounts to me saying that the cosmological model is internally coherent and materialism fits with Occam’s razor, all metaphysical claims have a more likely material explanation, including free will, ghosts, souls, god and so on and even if the word or idea “matter” is far from the actual truth, the model that defines “matter” would be the best description also for the case where “matter” was objectively “photon noise” or “magic goo”.

See, the whole reason for the perceived discrepancy of the experience and the experiencer (or rather, the perceived existence of a noun experiencer) is that the nervous system is the experience, but the experience reflects the rest of the universe so that within the experience every experience is projected outwards away from the actual experience. This creates a self, which is actually just a part of the movement of the universe and not a Ding in itself. Slavoj Zizek said the best thing, that the future challenge is that we must accept that we are both not completely separate individuals and yet fully personally responsible.

Advertisements

Tags: , , , ,

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


%d bloggers like this: